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well good evening and depending on what part\h
of the world you're in maybe it's good morning\h\h

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to all our fellow denizens of ufo research and\h
interest around the world i'm ross coulthart\h\h

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from australia in the sunny southern highlands\h
of new south wales and in in los angeles in the\h\h

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united states is my friend and colleague bryce\h
zabel g'day bryce how are you mate i'm good roscoe\h\h

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and i got to tell you you're not the only one who\h
gets confused this whole thing the u.s just went\h\h

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on to daylight savings time which is our sunday\h
which i have learned that is usually your monday\h\h

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only we're off an hour so it's really lucky that\h
we even got together to do this on time and and\h\h

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the bulletin is that the us senate has unanimously\h
uh passed a bill that has to be approved by the\h\h

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house and signed by the president that would\h
make daylight savings time all the time here\h\h

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in the united states so the more things change\h
as the more they stay the same well my friend\h\h

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as you know the world is a very weird place right\h
now i mean not only is it the weather i mean it's\h\h

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raining here and it's meant to be summer and it's\h
honestly like an english winter and i understand\h\h

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in los angeles it's your well you're going into\h
winter and it's actually quite beautiful there\h\h

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well actually we're coming out of winter we're\h
now officially coming out of winter that's coming\h\h

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out of winter now it's springtime and i got to\h
tell you uh it's 75 degrees and beautiful here\h\h

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in southern california i don't want to get into\h
the whole mask issue with uh kovid but i will\h\h

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just say one observation just a journalistic\h
observation is i went out for lunch today and\h\h

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you couldn't even find a place to park in the\h
parking lot every restaurant was jammed and not\h\h

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a mask in sight well maybe a couple of masks but\h
mostly people are done with it and it was it was a\h\h

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very different time here everybody was out and it\h
felt like kind of a public party that was going on\h\h

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isn't it strange though the way that coverts\h
been the dominant issue in the news for so many\h\h

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months now in fact for years and now we've got\h
this horrifying war in the ukraine that's just\h\h

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dominating the news bulletins and i i think it\h
would be remiss of us not to talk about the war\h\h

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in the ukraine and i guess the one takeaway i\h
have bryce is frankly if the russians really do\h\h

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have advanced technology such as has been\h
suggested might have been manifested in the\h\h

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tic-tac or the go-fast or the gimbal or these\h
anomalous objects drones seen by the u.s navy\h\h

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off the u.s coast they're sure as hell not using\h
them in the ukraine they're taking a battering\h\h

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i mean we are this proves that we are\h
twin sons of different mothers my friend\h\h

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because i literally had scribbled down the same\h
thing does does the ukraine situation prove to us\h\h

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that the russians don't have uh the the uap drone\h
technology that that at least official them has\h\h

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once in a while tried to float out there as\h
an explanation because i think most people\h\h

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would believe if things are going as badly in the\h
battlefield as they have been for the the russians\h\h

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over the past few weeks that if they had it in\h
their uh in their if they had that arrow in their\h\h

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quiver they might have fired it i think one of the\h
things i'm really interested in is if you think\h\h

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about the connection the clear nexus between uaps\h
and nuclear facilities nuclear weapons it does\h\h

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interest me to know whether there's going\h
to be any increased sightings in and around\h\h

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places like chernobyl and some of the other\h
nuclear facilities in the in ukraine because\h\h

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there is this long history of a clear link between\h
nuclear facilities and nuclear weapons and uaps\h\h

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and i'd love to know i mean if anybody's hearing\h
of any incidents that have taken place in the uh\h\h

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in ukraine i'd love to know about it well i so\h
would i and obviously it's a little concerning\h\h

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when you hear about chernobyl under attack and and\h
nuclear power plants on fire and and that kind of\h\h

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thing uh particularly given the the interference\h
that has historically been associated with\h\h

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such things by uap so i don't know i mean i i\h
it concerns me and and i just wanted to put a\h\h

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pin on the drone thing are you agreeing with\h
me though that that uh if they had a drone\h\h

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that was a uap that it could do the things that\h
have been observed these uaps doing that they\h\h

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might have used it well obviously i mean if they\h
had technology like that they would have used it\h\h

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can i just tell you that there's a incident\h
that i think is one of my favorite incidents if\h\h

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there is such a thing involving uaps over nuclear\h
facilities and it happened in soviet ukraine in a\h\h

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place called belukovich in soviet ukraine on the\h
4th of october 1982 and it involved an icbm silo\h\h

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that was very nearly brought to the point of\h
discharging its weapon and bringing the world\h\h

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very close to nuclear war it's one of the times\h
we've come the closest to nuclear war and at this\h\h

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balukrovich forgive me if the pronunciation is\h
wrong sounds good weapons silo at about six in\h\h

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the evening there was a large geometrically shaped\h
object three thousand feet in diameter hovering\h\h

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in the sky over the silo and a lieutenant\h
colonel vladimir platinev a missile engineer\h\h

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said that this ufo had a completely even surface\h
with no visible portholes and simultaneously\h\h

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inside the icbm missile silo an emergency warning\h
light indicated that a nuclear missile had\h\h

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launched had sorry had switched to launch mode\h
the communications officer said that something\h\h

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had somehow entered the correct code to launch\h
a soviet nuclear missile from ukraine but moscow\h\h

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hadn't ordered a launch nor had any personnel\h
in the bunker actually touched the control panel\h\h

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and for 15 seconds technicians were running\h
around panicking because they were frantically\h\h

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trying to stop the launch and then without any\h
explanation the launch sequence was abandoned\h\h

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and then they later investigated there\h
was no no fault could be found it may\h\h

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have been in your book but there's a quote\h
from someone um on that incident saying that\h\h

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that that person that russian who did not fire\h
and who did what he could just not respond to\h\h

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those orders was really the hero of the day and\h
and that's certainly true and i'll tell you the\h\h

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thing that really disturbs me when i i take no joy\h
in hearing stories about how the russian military\h\h

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is inept or not not so good because i mean i i\h
certainly don't want them to prevail but what i'm\h\h

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taking uh concern about is it's it is concerning\h
if they have this large nuclear missile force\h\h

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and they're using possibly old technology\h
and that they're not as on top of it as we\h\h

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wish they would be i mean these are concerning\h
times i mean if command and control is as woeful\h\h

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as it appears to be logistics command and control\h
communications is as well feel as it appears to be\h\h

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in ukraine we are at a very dangerous time in\h
history i think last time we spoke we were talking\h\h

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about how close the clock is the doomsday clock\h
is to midnight we're a hundred seconds to midnight\h\h

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it's the closest the doomsday clock published by\h
the bulletin of atomic scientists has ever been\h\h

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we are we're in incredibly dangerous\h
times but look let's record some of the\h\h

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the week's news bryce yeah and for me one of the\h
top moments was even though he's spoken before\h\h

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about the reality of uaps the former head of the\h
dj sa alain schule who's the spy boss former spy\h\h

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boss the equivalent of the cia in france he went\h
public on a podcast and said that he was aware of\h\h

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underwater submerged objects traveling greater\h
than the speed of sound underwater i mean it's\h\h

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amazing that you can have an intelligence official\h
former making an assertion like that and it's not\h\h

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immediately front page news in every news bulletin\h
i find it astonishing here here my friend uh yes\h\h

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it is astonishing however it is interesting that\h
uh we've had our own selection of cia uh bosses uh\h\h

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former bosses speaking out john brennan of course\h
and and uh there's been a couple of others and now\h\h

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we have this uh this french spymaster speaking\h
out i think it is time to pay attention to them\h\h

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and and honestly if you think about how fast these\h
things are recorded going uh in in the air that\h\h

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the concept of going faster than the speed of\h
sound underwater is mind boggling now i did see\h\h

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somebody i i haven't been able to look into this\h
but they were saying that sound travels faster\h\h

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underwater so that's a relative thing yeah that's\h
what i it's what i really want to know i want\h\h

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to know i mean i'd love to interview mr julia to\h
see whether he's talking about the speed of sound\h\h

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underwater or whether he's talking about the speed\h
of sound in air seated underwater let's be honest\h\h

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i mean nuclear submarines are pretty fast for what\h
we've got and they don't approach anything close\h\h

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to that uh unless i'm missing something yeah i\h
mean listen yeah even if it's the sand if it even\h\h

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if it's the slower version of the speed of sound\h
in air underwater you're you're talking about\h\h

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traveling one mile sorry five miles in one second\h
okay okay now um i'm sure being in australia\h\h

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you're a pretty fast swimmer but uh let's you\h
know let's just say that exceeds most capacity\h\h

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for anything that we're aware of in water and and\h
when you've got someone with a responsible job\h\h

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like him talking about it i mean it's just time\h
to pay attention we can't keep ignoring this now\h\h

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we should also point out because we pay attention\h
to the historical bit of all this uh spymasters\h\h

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have been speaking out for a while it goes back\h
to roscoe hillenkotter who was the first cia\h\h

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chief back in 1960 speaking out we'll talk more\h
about those days uh in the rest of the show but\h\h

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i mean it is it is an amazing time and and i share\h
your shock and amazement that when something like\h\h

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this comes out journalists aren't just uh lining\h
up to to track him down for an interview it\h\h

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just seems odd to me and it still is odd yep and\h
also they're not covering what's going on in our\h\h

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congress because i think you're across the detail\h
of this but as i understand it there was more\h\h

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legislation just in the last week or so which has\h
entrenched the transparency requirements from the\h\h

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intelligence community in the defense department\h
that's true we're all talking about the uh\h\h

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the requirements that were in the national defense\h
authorization act that was passed and signed at\h\h

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the end of last year a lot of that language uh\h
details how that's going to work but what happened\h\h

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for uh on a specific basis this week is that\h
the um the omnibus bill for the 728 billion\h\h

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defense department budget was signed by\h
president biden after uh after whatever\h\h

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this amount of time was and that means that those\h
uh those mandates that were contained in the bill\h\h

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are now to be funded now it's unclear\h
how much they're going to be funded\h\h

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and at what level of course but they are to be\h
funded and there seem to be some teeth coming\h\h

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into it but i keep hearing as you seem to let on\h
that there are a number of people uh i guess this\h\h

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would include chris mellon who has voiced this\h
uh opinion who feel like there are voices and\h\h

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actors within the u.s government particularly in\h
the department of defense who would like to put\h\h

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the classification level back up again and make\h
sure that the transparency isn't quite uh what we\h\h

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think it might or should be you hearing the same\h
thing yes i am and this is very important because\h\h

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one of the things that was never made entirely\h
clear in the defence appropriation legislation\h\h

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that was passed at the end of last year in the\h
congress was just how much the public would be\h\h

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being told about the classified reports that are\h
due to be provided to the congressional committees\h\h

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the senate intelligence committee and the armed\h
services committee in particular in the congress\h\h

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and it's not clear still just how much the public\h
will be told in an unclassified version of what\h\h

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the congress is secretly told no doubt in in\h
skiffs in heavily protected committee hearing\h\h

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environments because the u.s military according\h
to christopher mellon and lua luzondo they've\h\h

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both raised their concerns about this chris mellom\h
the former deputy assistant secretary of defense\h\h

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and lua lazondo who was the chap that led the\h
pentagon's secret investigation into uaps at\h\h

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the time called the atip program at least public\h
publicly it was part of what was another program\h\h

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called orsap but whatever the case the new uap\h
task force is gathering intelligence and data from\h\h

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all over the united states government at the\h
moment and frankly we're being told we're going to\h\h

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get snowed well that's a worry well it's a worry\h
and obviously it's good to have people on your\h\h

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side who don't want to get snowed i'm just going\h
to take a moment here and veer off from the uh\h\h

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the interesting and valid point you just made into\h
the the sublimely ridiculous but uh if if it's\h\h

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if it's a a warning at all about how the\h
department of defense wants us to look at\h\h

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what's going on you referred to the newly\h
formed uap well there was a uap task force\h\h

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and now the defense department is calling\h
it the aoi msg which we've been laughing\h\h

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about because it stands for and let's see if\h
we can do it airborne object identification

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see it's designed to be forgettable rice\h
designed to be forgettable yeah folks you\h\h

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those of you who have been following us remember\h
that a couple episodes back we just said well\h\h

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damn it we're gonna have to come up with our own\h
uh way to refer to this office because i don't\h\h

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think we want to go through the next years talking\h
about ayomsga or whatever and as my wife pointed\h\h

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out msg to her means monosodium glowed monosodium\h
and you know the whole thing is strange so uh ross\h\h

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you and i have decided uh that at least for our\h
purposes we should call that office the uap office\h\h

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only uap stands for something different now the\h
um i love this i think we're very clever coming\h\h

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up with this unpronounceable acronym from the\h
pentagon unpronounceable acronym from the pentagon\h\h

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yes folks you heard it here first i i hope it\h
catches on i don't know if it will it's probably\h\h

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confusing but it can't be any more confusing than\h
aoi msg and by the way as long as we're talking\h\h

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about what's in the name let me wrap up this uh\h
this first section of our podcast here with uh\h\h

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a little name game uh over there you know i\h
remember it was on our very first show ross and\h\h

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and we talked about whether we would call these\h
things uh uap for unidentified aerial phenomena or\h\h

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ufo for unidentified flying object so um and\h
i wanted to say that a a whole year earlier i\h\h

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had asked people on through my twitter account uh\h
what what we should call it and i gave them only\h\h

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two choices ufo or uap and ufo won 72 to 28 and\h
there were close to a thousand people voting on it\h\h

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so we went back out folks and we asked again but\h
we threw in a little bit of subtlety we said okay\h\h

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what's in a name what should we call these strange\h
objects we got 786 votes in a three-day period\h\h

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and we gave them these choices ufo uap they're\h
interchangeable or they're both wrong so i don't\h\h

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know if we can't get a drum roll here but i will\h
say that ufo won again but not by the same margin\h\h

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when given options ufo got 36.8 of the vote which\h
i think the point the point is that that none of\h\h

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them really work they're not flying and they're\h
not aerial some of them are right away and some\h\h

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of them are in orbit both wrong i mean well okay\h
they were interchangeable came in second with 30.5\h\h

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uap really didn't measure up 19.6 percent but your\h
point ross that you just made uh 13.1 said they're\h\h

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both wrong and and the truth is if we're going to\h
talk about united i mean unidentified submergible\h\h

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objects going past the speed of sound underwater\h
ufo or uap aren't quite right so coming up\h\h

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next we've decided it's time to look at the actual\h
history of the investigations into the phenomenon\h\h

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the official reports that have been done and\h
coming up next we're going to take you to\h\h

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one of the most little-known and it was\h
an exploration done by a chap in australia\h\h

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called harry turner and i think his story\h
is intriguing coming up next on need to know

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well we're back and you know ross i as i've said\h
many times i enjoyed reading your book in plain\h\h

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sight specifically because it talked a great deal\h
about things that i didn't know a great deal about\h\h

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what was going on in australia and i can pretty\h
well go through the litany of reports that we've\h\h

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we've gone through here in the united\h
states but i was fascinated by this one\h\h

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about a harry turner a man who was\h
very intrigued by the uap issue and\h\h

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and it's a hell of a story and i i wish you'd tell\h
it i'll take you to a lonely empty desert bryce\h\h

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round about 1960 at a place called wewak in the\h
middle of nowhere in south australia at a place\h\h

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called maralinga and this is where the british\h
government was testing its nuclear weapons it had\h\h

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been doing these tests in its wisdom on australian\h
territory throughout the 1950s and the 1960s and\h\h

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this if you like is our nevada test range it's one\h
of the largest areas of ostensibly empty land in\h\h

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the world it's massive and there were actually\h
nomadic aboriginal people living there and they\h\h

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suffered terribly as a result of these tests and\h
lost a lot of their ancestral land but we won't\h\h

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go there for the moment albeit it's an important\h
point but there was a young scientist called harry\h\h

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turner who was a physicist he'd gone through\h
melbourne university and he got roped in to\h\h

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helping the investigations into the the bomb tests\h
at maralinga very very secret tests and he was a\h\h

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top secret cleared young physicist walking around\h
as the health officer on these nuclear tests\h\h

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making sure that radiation was monitored\h
and making sure everything was run properly\h\h

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in the course of his work he came across a\h
group of sightings that took place at this\h\h

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place wewek which were never explained and\h
uh harry essentially was intrigued because he\h\h

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concluded as a result of what he'd seen that these\h
objects were possibly extraterrestrial possibly\h\h

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flying sources and so as he progressed through the\h
defense department and in 1971 1970 by that time\h\h

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he was a scientific analyst with the directorate\h
of scientific and technical intelligence the dsti\h\h

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with australia's joint intelligence bureau\h
which is i guess the rough equivalent of your\h\h

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defense intelligence agency at the time it was\h
like the the spy agency for our defence force\h\h

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and he was one of the chief geeks one of the\h
chief scientists and in 1970 he pushed for a ufo\h\h

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investigation team inside the department\h
of defense and he made an incredibly lucid\h\h

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argument that summarized what he knew not just\h
from people like jacques valet who even then\h\h

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was playing an influential role in commentary and\h
public commentary but also from his own liaisons\h\h

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with scientists not only from the us but also\h
from britain because one of the great untold\h\h

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stories is the number of sightings that took\h
place during these british tests at maralinga\h\h

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they mirrored exactly what the u.s was seeing\h
at its test facilities in the various atomic\h\h

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bomb sites in the nevada test range in nevada in\h
the united states and it was clear that something\h\h

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anomalous some kind of intelligent craft was\h
taking an interest in these nuclear weapons tests\h\h

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in australia and so he wrote a report in me get to\h
that report ross before you get to the report let\h\h

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me just ask you a question if if he's mirroring\h
what we were saying is going on what what would\h\h

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that be what what what was being seen in australia\h
that was the mirror of what we were seeing here

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he presented an analysis to his\h
bosses basically saying that the\h\h

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ufo reports that had been seen by u.s air force\h
intelligence and by australian intelligence were\h\h

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real phenomena that had flight characteristics\h
so far in advance of us aircraft that only an\h\h

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extraterrestrial origin could be envisaged and\h
he explained to his bosses how the cia through\h\h

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its office of um scientific intelligence the\h
osi initiated an inquiry that eventually led to\h\h

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the i always loved the term grudge the inquiries\h
like project sign and project grudge inside the\h\h

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us i've i've always joked to myself that project\h
grudge was the us military begrudgingly having to\h\h

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do an investigation into the whole issue of uaps\h
no and they were i mean essentially what harry\h\h

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says though and this is really interesting this is\h
a guy inside the very apex of our defence science\h\h

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technology organization he actually said candidly\h
that the cia was so alarmed at the number of ufo\h\h

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sightings that they were concerned russians the\h
soviets might take advantage of such a situation\h\h

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and so osi the cia acting through a\h
so-called robertson panel meeting in 1953\h\h

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persuaded the u.s air force to use eventually\h
project blue book as a means of publicly\h\h

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debunking ufos and at a later stage they were they\h
were pushing for a crash program into anti-gravity\h\h

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research and what's fascinating to me about harry\h
turner is here is a guy who's got top secret\h\h

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clearances he's seen strange objects he believes\h
that they were extraterrestrial craft hovering\h\h

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over australia's nuclear weapons test facility at\h
maralinga and he's flatly saying that essentially\h\h

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there's been a cover-up that the us is trying\h
to shut down the whole uap issue by publicly\h\h

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debunking ufos whilst secretly investigating them\h
and launching a crash program into anti-gravity\h\h

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yet again the cognitive dissonance between\h
what is being said publicly by the us air force\h\h

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and what is being said privately in confidential\h
documents this document that he wrote\h\h

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it's about 30 pages it was a top secret report\h
prepared for his bosses which candidly said\h\h

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the u.s was conducting secret research into\h
anti-gravity and they were taking these uaps very\h\h

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very seriously indeed although he never uh he\h
never took it to the same degree that harry turner\h\h

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obviously did it sounds like harry turner has a\h
little bit of the flavor of australia's jay allen\h\h

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heineck he's uh he's an academic originally\h
correct and and he's working on the inside\h\h

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advising the defense department at roughly the\h
same time yet he was an academic and he was a\h\h

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maverick in fact um bill chalker who's a ufo uap\h
researcher here in australia of great renault\h\h

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told me last week that um one of his former\h
colleagues one of harry's former colleagues\h\h

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acknowledged that harry was very naughty\h
spending about eighty percent of his time\h\h

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as a defense scientist investigating uaps because\h
he was so fascinated by the issue and what i find\h\h

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i really recommend harry's report because you can\h
read it in the national archives of australia and\h\h

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we can put the link up on the program later but\h
he essentially described what you and i take for\h\h

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granted but which is very articulate very rarely\h
articulated which is he essentially described that\h\h

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the u.s air force erected a facade of ridicule to\h
shut down public investigation into the uap issue\h\h

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and the australian air force together with\h
many other countries of the world he said\h\h

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give credence only to the u.s air force public\h
facade and appear to have uncritically accepted\h\h

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the associated information and harry\h
acknowledged that this information has been\h\h

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widely discredited by retiring u.s service\h
personnel formally engaged on uap investigations\h\h

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as well as by scientists and private citizens he\h
was telling his bosses that they needed to launch\h\h

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a uap investigation program and what's really\h
interesting is they supported him they were\h\h

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keen was there a any kind of ongoing australian\h
investigation going on at that time when he was\h\h

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suggesting let's get really serious and let's take\h
this on were we at least doing something we never\h\h

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had well we never had anything as structured as\h
project blue book which was the exhaustive um\h\h

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i think for nearly 20 years investigation by the\h
u.s air force but if you go through the files of\h\h

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the correctly named daffy the department of\h
air force intelligence in australia they've\h\h

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got thousands of reports of uap sightings right\h
across the country and it shows that they were\h\h

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monitoring and tabulating and assessing any uaps\h
at all or ufos as they called them at the time\h\h

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they were taking it seriously and what seems\h
to have happened is there seems to have been a\h\h

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consultation between the department of air force\h
intelligence and the air force office of special\h\h

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investigations in the united states because\h
initially harry's bosses were very supportive they\h\h

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were actually giving voice to the idea that yes\h
there might be a case for a even a quick reaction\h\h

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force to actually take this so seriously that\h
when there was a ufo uap sighting a team could\h\h

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be deployed including harry to go and investigate\h
these cases kind of like an x-files investigation\h\h

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so it's a report and he tells them you guys\h
better get on the stick here and you you need\h\h

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to do this investigation you need to step your\h
game up you need to be uh taking teams out to\h\h

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these sites did they did they do anything\h
with this report or did they just file it away

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it got shut down and in fact\h
there's the most delightful letter\h\h

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on the front of the file where um i think\h
one of the senior people in the in the\h\h

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defense science area of the defense department\h
says i am not convinced there is a sufficient\h\h

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scientific intelligence component in the ufo\h
problem such as to warrant any diversion of\h\h

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australia's very limited resources\h
for scientific intelligence research\h\h

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it is evident that there still is considerable\h
controversy concerning ufos and this will\h\h

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undoubtedly continue until the subject is fully\h
examined by some competent authority such an\h\h

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examination however would require a considerable\h
effort to collect information on ufo sightings to\h\h

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investigate reports and such sightings and\h
to examine all information in an objective\h\h

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and scientific manner it is for consideration\h
as to whether the department of defense would

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would uh afford such an effort so basically they\h
used money as the excuse i said i don't for a\h\h

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minute like what that that person said in his\h
response but i sure do like hearing you read it\h\h

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i feel like you do the aussie bureaucrat\h
voice better than i mean it's it's a great\h\h

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job you've done there listen um i think\h
uh harry turner will be we will post that\h\h

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file uh or at least uh we'll post the link\h
to that file so people can read the report\h\h

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it makes a hell of a read i've read it and um and\h
when we come back by the way what we're going to\h\h

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try to do is one of harry's contemporaries in\h
the united states was a captain edward rupelt\h\h

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and ross has been talking a little bit about\h
blue book we've all heard about blue book but\h\h

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you may not have heard all about repelt and and\h
some of the things that he did in the early days\h\h

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very fascinating so stick with us we'll\h
be talking about that on the other side

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welcome back to need to know where we left\h
you last segment with the lamentations of an\h\h

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australian physicist harry turner telling us how\h
he was snowed by the australian air force in his\h\h

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efforts to get a ufo uap investigation team up\h
and running in australia and he lamented that\h\h

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essentially the raft the australian air force was\h
guided by the u.s air force which was essentially\h\h

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allaying public interest by\h
denying the reality of uaps or ufos\h\h

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now bryce you've been doing a bit of digging yeah\h
into the the various um committees and groups that\h\h

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were set up by the cia the u.s air force and the\h
defense community to investigate uaps in the u.s\h\h

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were being told publicly all through the period\h
of the cold war and right up to the present day\h\h

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that there's no issue of national security\h
no threat to flight safety but behind the\h\h

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scenes mate what were those committees what's\h
the story of the history of investigations\h\h

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by the us into the phenomenon well we're never\h
going to tell the entire story in this uh this\h\h

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podcast but i will say i really liked what you did\h
with uh harry turner i enjoyed hearing the story\h\h

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through his point of view and so i want to tell\h
people the story of a young air force officer\h\h

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a guy that lands a gig that's going to either make\h
or break his career and that happens to be someone\h\h

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named captain edward rupelt who was the very first\h
guy to get the gig running project blue book here\h\h

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in the united states and before i tell you about\h
harry and how he interacted with blue book and\h\h

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and literally how he met his end i want everyone\h
to understand this was a decorated world war\h\h

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ii bombardier this is the guy that dropped the\h
bombs and he was awarded five battle stars he\h\h

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got two theater combat ribbons three air medals\h
two distinguished flying crosses i mean this was\h\h

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a decorated man he was a young man when he was\h
doing all that he got out of the war and he got\h\h

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a bachelor of science degree in aeronautical\h
engineering from iowa state college so i think\h\h

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he thought that was going to be his life story but\h
it turned out there was another uh story in line\h\h

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for him which was jesus do you think he wanted to\h
be do you think he wanted to be a ufo investigator\h\h

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bryce i could imagine for a combat combat pilot he\h
would have lamented being asked to do it he didn't\h\h

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at all in fact what happened is he thought okay\h
well you know like a lot of other of my friends\h\h

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i got a chance to go to college that's great\h
and now i'll go do something else with my life\h\h

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but uh the korean war was being fought at that\h
time and they pulled him back into the air force\h\h

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and he got assigned during the korean war to\h
the air technical intelligence center which is\h\h

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headquartered at wright-patterson air\h
force base all right so what happened is\h\h

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by the time he comes in there this is a time when\h
the united states was it wasn't exactly the world\h\h

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that you're describing where they were saying\h
one thing publicly and another privately they\h\h

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did work their way up to that and frankly during\h
his time at the at the head of the whole thing but\h\h

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we were in the middle of something called project\h
sign at the time because there was a lot of stuff\h\h

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going down in 1947 1948 and uh he was one of the\h
guys with the very young guys involved in that and\h\h

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then his project can i cannot yeah sure let's\h
interrupt for a moment the the key point that\h\h

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i take away from that is project sign project\h
grudge all of these operations before blue book\h\h

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they were taking the issue seriously yes they were\h
taking aging with and acknowledging it as real\h\h

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in fact uh what uh rupell said over and over is\h
that uh there were always a divisions of opinions\h\h

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some people wanted to believe it just had to be\h
the russians or or us or some earthly explanation\h\h

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like comets or whatever and there was a large and\h
sometimes growing group of people that said it had\h\h

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to be interplanetary and this was something\h
that was acknowledged uh back at those times\h\h

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and it wasn't until later they decided to get\h
out of that business but what happened to rupelt\h\h

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he was really organized this is a guy i'm an\h
organized guy so i can relate to that he was\h\h

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just very organized and so they said well you know\h
we're going to turn this into project blue book\h\h

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this is in 1952 and they said uh we're going to\h
put you in charge of this thing and so he ended\h\h

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up being in charge of project blue book and one\h
of the things that makes uh captain edward rupelt\h\h

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00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:03,440
stand out folks is that he is the guy that\h
first coined the phrase unidentified flying\h\h

328
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:10,240
objects they were of course flying saucers from\h
1947 until he got the gig over at blue book and\h\h

329
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:15,120
he said that doesn't seem quite right it doesn't\h
describe exactly what many of them look like or\h\h

330
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:23,200
even how they they fly so unidentified flying\h
objects became his thing now when he first got\h\h

331
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:29,920
that gig he described the world of the air force\h
ross that that he had lived in uh for the past\h\h

332
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:35,280
couple of years as a state of near panic that\h
there were just a lot of people running around\h\h

333
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:41,120
the air force as you pointed out who just said we\h
don't know what this is but it feels like national\h\h

334
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:49,280
security to us and so this these were these were\h
tense times um and he also said that when people\h\h

335
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:54,560
he did say this though as time went on when the\h
press would go and talk to these people and say\h\h

336
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,960
well what do you know about this they got the\h
same there's a quote from him they got the same\h\h

337
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,920
treatment that you would get today if you inquired\h
about the number of thermonuclear weapons in the\h\h

338
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:10,800
us's atomic stockpile in other words you know just\h
because the the military was willing to talk about\h\h

339
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:18,560
it they didn't have a formal way to uh to get rid\h
of this but they they were uh not eager to lay out\h\h

340
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:24,400
all their work product in front of everyone now\h
uh you i just wanna i'm gonna drag you in here\h\h

341
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:30,400
while he's on the job doing project blue book uh\h
something called the robertson panel comes in and\h\h

342
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:35,760
you alluded to that why don't you bring us up to\h
speed on what robertson was well essentially the\h\h

343
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:41,760
robertson panel is best described by my friend\h
as a cia snow job it was an attempt to basically\h\h

344
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:46,640
shut down public interest in the phenomenon that's\h
what harry turner thought here in australia that's\h\h

345
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:52,400
what he'd been told by his mates over in in\h
america and that's certainly acknowledged now in\h\h

346
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,520
released declassified documents from your official\h
national archives that show that there was a\h\h

347
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:05,200
deliberate attempt to shut down public awareness\h
of the uap issue by essentially using ridicule and\h\h

348
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:11,600
dismissiveness and the robertson panel recommended\h
that as a strategy which is quite astonishing it\h\h

349
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:19,680
was very very unscientific and the excuse that was\h
given was that essentially uaps were a distraction\h\h

350
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:26,000
ufos were a distraction from monitoring the very\h
real threat of potential soviet incursions into\h\h

351
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,760
american aerospace but i've never quite bought\h
the explanation that they wanted to shut down the\h\h

352
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:39,200
issue because of that because surely any object\h
breaching your airspace your national security\h\h

353
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:45,200
hovering over sensitive national installations\h
whatever it is it's a national security threat\h\h

354
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:50,480
and by definition isn't that what the us military\h
is meant to be protecting the nation from\h\h

355
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:56,720
yeah and this is why i've i i i think that the\h
argument that that was laid out to try and use\h\h

356
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:03,760
the robertson panel to justify shutting down\h
public concern it's bs and it's bs to this day\h\h

357
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,160
because it's still very much the argument\h
that dictates u.s air force policy today\h\h

358
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,920
and it's why we suspect that there's something\h
being hidden that there's something that they're\h\h

359
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:20,000
concealing that they know frankly which explains\h
why they've decided to shut this issue down you\h\h

360
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:26,160
know the cia i'm sorry go ahead no that's right\h
because i do think you know you had the washington\h\h

361
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:34,400
flyover in 1952 this was an issue that was at the\h
forefront of american national security concern\h\h

362
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:40,160
the most sensitive areas of the of the american\h
government had been essentially the airspace above\h\h

363
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:46,160
them had been penetrated by unknown objects doing\h
incredible things that the u.s air force could do\h\h

364
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:51,680
nothing about and so the very next year they have\h
the robertson panel and what does it do it tries\h\h

365
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:58,320
to shut down public awareness and interest in this\h
issue why what did rupell say about that well it's\h\h

366
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:04,480
the it's the pivot point uh the robertson panel\h
that's the point where the attempts at some\h\h

367
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:10,240
transparency became more like you know we just\h
better not admit these things are real we need\h\h

368
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:15,280
maybe if we stop talking about it so much people\h
will stop seeing it so much is how they they\h\h

369
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:20,800
kind of came down on it and and i just want to\h
drag it back to rupelt's uh experience because\h\h

370
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:27,200
uh he spent uh those early years in blue book and\h
people always give him high marks for it he had\h\h

371
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,880
a staff of 10 people they were investigators they\h
were doing a good job j allen heineck was involved\h\h

372
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,440
at the time he thought he was doing a good job\h
these guys were trying to do the best they could\h\h

373
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:43,680
because they were trying to seriously look into it\h
and i just want to point something out he leaves\h\h

374
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:49,520
in 1953 he doesn't leave until after the robertson\h
panel and one of the reasons you could say maybe\h\h

375
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:56,080
he left is that after the robertson panel blue\h
book got downsized from 10 people to three people\h\h

376
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,880
uh one of whom was rupelt so he may have thought\h
okay i see the writing on the wall i got to get\h\h

377
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:07,600
out of this place but one of the reasons people\h
liked him and and that he is kind of a hero of the\h\h

378
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,960
movement if you will is because he was willing\h
to be honest about this very concept of proof\h\h

379
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,200
and i pulled something from a book he wrote that\h
i'm going to be talking about in a second but\h\h

380
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:22,800
here's what he said he said the hassle over\h
the word proof boils down to one question\h\h

381
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:30,480
what constitutes proof does a ufo have to\h
land at the river entrance to the pentagon\h\h

382
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:38,240
near the joint chiefs of staff offices or is it\h
proof when a ground radar station detects a ufo\h\h

383
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:44,400
sends a jet to intercept it the jet pilot sees\h
it and locks on with his radar only to have the\h\h

384
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:51,680
ufo streak away at a phenomenal speed is\h
it proof when a jet pilot fires at a ufo\h\h

385
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:57,360
and sticks to his story even under the threat\h
of court martial does this constitute proof\h\h

386
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:04,560
so that makes him stand up and he was saying that\h
i think he wrote a book subsequently didn't he\h\h

387
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:11,200
he basically he acknowledged the reality of what\h
he saw and he was questioning why this issue was\h\h

388
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:16,640
being shut down by his former superiors in the\h
military well he he wrote in the 50s there were\h\h

389
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:21,840
a lot of people writing books donald kehoe was\h
probably the most popularized at that point but\h\h

390
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:29,360
he uh after he left um rupell wrote a book in 1956\h
this is three years roughly after he left it was\h\h

391
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:35,040
called report on the flying saucers i believe that\h
was the title no the report on the unidentified\h\h

392
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:41,200
flying objects why wouldn't he use his own\h
word of course now he wrote a 1956 edition that\h\h

393
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,880
is astonishing i've been listening to it and\h
reading it it's quite full of of cases and\h\h

394
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:52,160
and any one of these given cases would probably\h
make you go well okay i need to know more about\h\h

395
00:42:52,160 --> 00:43:00,960
that that's incredible and and yet and this is the\h
crazy thing it was very accepting that ufos might\h\h

396
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:08,400
be interplanetary it was very accepting that they\h
were real and guess what four years later 1960\h\h

397
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:15,120
edward rupelt puts out a revised edition of\h
it where it's the same exact book except three\h\h

398
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:20,800
chapters have been added to the end and i've read\h
them now and those three chapters basically say\h\h

399
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:28,640
never mind he basically says of ufos in\h
his 1960 book i'm positive they don't exist\h\h

400
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:34,000
there's not even a glimmer of hope for the\h
ufo now i want everyone to understand i'm\h\h

401
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:42,640
not trying to be a crazy lone gunman\h
here but after he wrote that in 1960\h\h

402
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:51,600
a few months later he died of a massive heart\h
attack all right and he was only 37 years old\h\h

403
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:56,880
so i just put that out that's his coda he told the\h
truth and then he had to pull it back and then he\h\h

404
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:02,080
died do you think he was snowed do you think\h
he was told to pull his head in by his bosses\h\h

405
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,960
i think is that your suspicion yeah i'm not going\h
to uh by the way argue that he was murdered or\h\h

406
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:13,040
anything i mean i who knows i mean i think\h
that that's that's a bridge too far for for\h\h

407
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:20,640
that leap but was he snowed i think what he was\h
told uh was you can't if you want if you want to\h\h

408
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,280
continue to work in the way that you're working\h
you're going to have to pull some of that back\h\h

409
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:30,240
and i think he did because the same exact thing\h
happened with admiral hillenkotter the first cia\h\h

410
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:37,760
director who actually spoke openly in 1960\h
and in 1962 pulled it back so there was\h\h

411
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:45,520
somebody on the inside was telling people\h
don't be so open so 60 years on my friend\h\h

412
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:52,320
let's roll forward 60 years to 2022 yeah\h
has really that much changed i mean i know\h\h

413
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:57,120
we're being told now that we're going to get\h
transparency we're going to get some kind of\h\h

414
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:03,040
disclosure from the congress later on this\h
year with the ndaa legislation but really\h\h

415
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:09,120
aren't melon elizondo and others right isn't\h
it more likely than not that we're going to\h\h

416
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:14,080
get snowed and that the the forces that for\h
some reason want to keep this issue secret\h\h

417
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:19,920
want to suppress it from public awareness so just\h
going to keep keep it secret i like to think no\h\h

418
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:26,560
i'll tell you why i know that that's easy to say\h
and i will agree with your initial point which is\h\h

419
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:32,320
it does feel like we've been here before i mean\h
as i said i've spent the last few days reviewing\h\h

420
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:38,720
edward rupelt's report on the unidentified flying\h
objects and it feels very similar to what we're\h\h

421
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:43,440
going through right now i mean the cases are like\h
oh my god that's exactly what just happened last\h\h

422
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:48,240
year or this year so you do get a lot of that\h
now what is different i'll give you just one\h\h

423
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:54,400
thing that's different as rupell said when he was\h
talking about proof they had pilots saying they\h\h

424
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:59,840
saw things they had some radar returns etc but\h
we've already gone beyond that we have better data\h\h

425
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:05,760
we're getting the data from private enterprise and\h
we're getting the data from the government even\h\h

426
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:12,080
if the government turns off the spigot there are\h
leaks there is data to be seen and the data that\h\h

427
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:18,080
we're getting is what gave us those three videos\h
in 2017. so maybe not maybe it's not the same\h\h

428
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:24,000
so for me my takeaway from the rupelt story\h
and indeed from the harry turner story\h\h

429
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,640
is the importance of keeping up the pressure\h
on our democratically elected representatives\h\h

430
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:35,600
it's vitally important that if people want to\h
know the real story they keep the pressure up\h\h

431
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:40,000
we'd better be thinking about wrapping up your\h
friend but do you agree with that sentiment i do\h\h

432
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:46,880
i think we've entered a new period here if there's\h
if there is something new about it it is the sense\h\h

433
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:53,280
that the people are are actively uh marshaling\h
their forces in a different way uh in the\h\h

434
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:58,800
in the 50s where rupelt and then in the 60s\h
where uh harry turner were operating it was\h\h

435
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:03,600
a different world uh there were other things they\h
were protesting i guess you'd say that about today\h\h

436
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:09,360
but i i do think there are some some of the\h
people who are speaking out like elizondo and\h\h

437
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:16,240
and melon and now increasingly former presidents\h
and uh cia directors there's an accretion of\h\h

438
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:22,240
all that that feels different to me it does yeah\h
that's my takeaway my takeaway is that we're now\h\h

439
00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:28,960
in an unprecedented period where okay back in\h
the 1950s in the very early 1950s they were\h\h

440
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:34,560
admitting that the phenomenon was real but now\h
there's a level of momentum here and there's a\h\h

441
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:41,680
public awareness that didn't exist back then and\h
that's what we're going to continue to explore\h\h

442
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:46,560
on need to know i think we might need to wrap\h
it up now my friend but let me let me just do\h\h

443
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:51,040
a little housekeeping here because people want to\h
know how can i get to know more about need to know\h\h

444
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:57,120
what do i need to know about you guys we have a a\h
website a home base if you will and you're looking\h\h

445
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:02,480
at it now it's need to know dot today and that's\h
basically got everything and we come to you in two\h\h

446
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,880
ways we do have this podcast and we're really\h
appreciative of everyone who's listening to it\h\h

447
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:12,560
and then we on a secondary level put it out as a\h
video on youtube and you can find both of those\h\h

448
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:20,640
ways through that need to know dot today so okay\h
i'm done we should get out of here best wishes\h\h

449
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:25,920
to all of you and thanks very much for listening\h
and watching this latest episode of need to know\h\h

450
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:32,320
and we'll be back with more looking under\h
dark rocks of ufo transparency sometime\h\h

451
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:47,840
very soon good to talk to you we can\h
handle the truth people get ready